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How do you define light and darkness

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How do you define light and darkness

Postby neconic » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:45 pm

Been doing some research. Reading, learning so I apologies for the inactivity.

I am wondering how you guys define light and darkness.

What do you believe they are?

What is light?
What is Darkness.

I have read quite a few of Draconis articles and I am drawn to the concept of light being an illusion and darkness superior.

What do you think?

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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Acanthos » Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:49 am

From a consequentialism perspective, a variation might be found between the two approaches to morals - and for me personally dark refers to self destructive transformation while light avoids any destruction as much as possible.

Additionally, personally I avoid broader destructive transformation which might serve the self, meaning external destruction etc, and this allows me to interface with light teachings as required because the only destruction falls within a concept of self-sacrifice.

In this way I find dark does tend to be quicker but more prone to loss of control, and perhaps with a different nature of result... so its get messy to try comparing results of different paths.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Miles » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:39 pm

Light and Dark is a metaphor for a duality, but I suspect you are looking for which duality we want to use. I have used a few and found each to be helpful in my work:
  • The accepted and rejected
  • The seen and the unseen
  • That which puts others before the self and the self before others
  • The rational and the emotional
  • Creation and Entropy
I guess one of the challenges is that I do not embrace one or the other as a preferred method. I look at our path as one of using the metaphor when it is useful, and discarding it when it is not. Elemental associations are more meaningful for me as a duality of spectra. The Earth/Fire and Water/Air axis allow for a better understanding in the metaphor that I currently use. This is alchemically represented by the Lily and the Rose ... and I am inspired by the Rose more than the Lily.

I think what is more important is the role the metaphor plays in the way one walks in the Force. I have found three paths to walk, but I am sure there are others. The Force thrashes over creation like a gale force wind. We the frail creatures find out ways to thrive in this wind. Some find shelter in their "reality" and cling to the rocks, hiding from the wind in hopes of comfort. This is the path of fear. Some seek to release themselves to the wind and let it carry them as they will ... when one moves as the wind moves, the wind becomes still and it is the illusory ground that becomes false. This is a path of renunciation. Some seek to walk in the wind and learn it's wild ways, so that the wind must accommodate them. This is the path of the Maelstrom. This is the choice I prefer.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby xartorias » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:37 pm

An interesting concept but the start of a lot of arguments and debates. Personally I try to not define them. Why does there have to be a light and or dark? Why can't it simply be what is. I mean yes I consider my philosophy as dark so call me a hypocrite all you like but dark and light is about perception. What I consider dark may be light to someone else.

My philosophy is named dark because I see most things I do, and most things that cause me to progress is dark. Light is that in which I appreciate and enjoy yet I know they need something to keep them alive. As you said in a previous post, A fire needs wood to sustain it. I agree with that.

But as a universal concept you cannot define something that is different to everyone. Because we are all individuals. The real question is why should I try define these things?

Dark is a point of view, light is a point of view. Everyone has different views. So why label them light or dark? Just accept it for what it simply is. Pain is pain, happiness is happiness, conflict is conflict, etc etc. I see no need in trying to categorize them.

Just my 2 cents
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Darth Reptitious » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:20 pm

My own experience of the "Dark" is that it is all consuming and demands the greatest of sacrifices. It is isolationistic and completely intolerant.

It strips you of who you are, whilst at the same time lures you deeper and deeper with promises of power and control, of which there is no joy.

It is a force of complete destruction, and as you are it's agent it demands your total destruction as its grand-finale (your final act).

The same (but inverse conditions) applies to those who devote themselves utterly to the light side.

Respect both approaches.

This is what I have learned.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Miles » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:49 pm

xartorias wrote:The real question is why should I try define these things?

That is a good question. My answer to it is because without definitions we are without a starting point. This is a forum, and so communication is the central focus. With each having their definitions of "dark" and "light" individually ... that is fine. There need not be any agreed upon definition ... until the ideas want to be explored and taken deeper. Then we do need to have at least a working definition to explore. Even if I wanted to use symbols rather than words, I would still need to define the symbol and then explore it. So if you want to talk about darkness, I am going to want to know what your definition is, so that I know what you mean when you say that you are a creature of darkness, or on a dark path. I want to know SPECIFICALLY. That terrifies some people.

I think this may be a side effect of a "sound bite" media ... interesting phrases or words that inspire the correct emotions without any exploration of the actual definition or meaning of what is actually being said has replaced critical thought among some younger folk I come across. It can be very frustrating to talk about things like "rights" when the person I am talking to doesn't have a clearly understood definition, if only a working one, of what a "right" is.

So I think definitions matter. I think defining them allows us to look into ourselves more clearly. Understanding our definitions reveals how we think and feel. The inability to communicate it is evidence of an unexplored idea, one where the feel of a word is more important than it's meaning. I think both should be equally considered. I am sometimes criticized for this as it frustrates the hell out of people when you keep asking for definitions of words they think everyone has the same definition for. It is in details that one learns and explores. Generalities tend to hinder this in my experience.

Also ... I have been wandering around these subjects for a few years now and if there is any single thing that I have found that causes more arguments, it's when two people are arguing finer points of a dark path with two completely different definitions of "Dark".
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby xartorias » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:06 pm

Well put miles. Great points.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Mortose » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:04 pm

Darth Reptitious wrote:My own experience of the "Dark" is that it is all consuming and demands the greatest of sacrifices. It is isolationistic and completely intolerant.

It strips you of who you are, whilst at the same time lures you deeper and deeper with promises of power and control, of which there is no joy.

It is a force of complete destruction, and as you are it's agent it demands your total destruction as its grand-finale (your final act).

The same (but inverse conditions) applies to those who devote themselves utterly to the light side.

Respect both approaches.

This is what I have learned.


I have learned such things as well, in addition to wispy shadows of understanding regarding the "substance" of the Darkness itself. Yes, it is destruction. However, not out of exactly malicious intent. I have found the Dark to be beyond such concepts that relate to human consciousness. It has a collective "will", a movement... A current. It pulls you into its black depths, smothers you... Whispers into your ears. It is not anger or hate in itself, yet such things cycle around it as if it was a collapsed star... The center of which is not nothing but anti-everything.

To explain something, negative emotion vibrates at a lower frequency than positive; something I learned long ago from my studies and practice with healing and directing "light" frequencies. I later cemented this when I began working with more negative emotions, finding them more "dense"... Heavier... Their vibrations more drawn out... Oscellating... Slow.

The Darkness does not fit into this system of frequency; it "vibrates" in the negative.

It destroys because it is like anti-matter to matter; the two can not exist in the same space... They wage a constant battle of annhiliation.

However, the Darkness has a centralized "space"... A "place" it inhabits devoid of all particle... Material... Thought. Oblivion, basically. At the center of this mass of Darkness, no emotion exists but it is not silent exactly. It SCREAMS into your very soul if you happen to find yourself there.

The negativity surrounding its core... Layer on layer... This is what reaches out to touch the material. This is what most feel when they experience "Darkness". It is what the light siders acknowledge and often claim has no power over them... or power in general.

This is the destructive force that moves in waves and ripples, touching all manifestation.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby LaRkEn » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:06 pm

This is an interesting question, and one that I will continue to answer differently as I keep defining my person truth and path...but, as someone who has been in both the Light-aspect teachings and Dark-aspect teachings, I can see where people have come up with their answers, and I agree with a lot of what has been said here.

An instructor from IJRS once quoted the Star Wars movies by copying this section:
Yoda: Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.


I cannot say which is stronger, the Light or Dark Side...I see them both as one part to a whole, something that is just an inverted image of the other. I agree with what Yoda said that the Dark side is quicker and more seductive...but I do NOT agree that it is something that is easier.
While SA offered me ranks rather easily, I found that trying to abandon all parts of me that were moral and light in order to draw in more of my selfish needs and destructive nature was so much harder than anything I have had to do before. I think to truly learn the art of the Dark Side you have to start from scratch, create a blank slate for yourself, erase everything you thought you knew before as to not hinder your new Path of learning. But then again, the same can also be said for the Light Side which oftentimes is trying to erase your current mindset and help you ascend above anything that is negative.

I am still learning, so my current understand is that the Light is the part of the Force which focuses on the World, the bigger picture, and the problems with humanity, trying to bring them all towards a center-point of Peace. But the Dark Side believes that Peace is a lie, and therefore focuses on self---and is looked upon as a selfish endeavor and oftentimes a destructive force because it does focus on something along the lines of empowerment.
But as I said before...these beliefs are pulled from what I have learned from Jedi-Realism and the only parts of Sithism I retained from my time spent at SA. I still have a long way to go towards true understanding when it comes to both of these aspects.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Khaos » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:15 pm

Do you think its important to define Light? Do you think its important to define Jedi...Do either really have any relevance or purpose in the definition of Darkness and the Sith.

I have never thought so.

I rarely give "Light" or Jedi much thought in regards to being a Sith, defining Darkness,etc.

I also would be interested in a definition of Darkness sans moral and ethical connotations.

Many say Light and Dark are two sides of same coin, parts of a whole, etc...

I find, most often, one is being used as a crutch to hold up the other.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Darth Reptitious » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:20 pm

LaRkEn wrote:I cannot say which is stronger the Light or Dark Side...


I don't think strength really comes into it. Which one garners the greatest rewards for the user now that would be where I place my focus.

LaRkEn wrote:I think to truly learn the art of the Dark Side you have to start from scratch, create a blank slate for yourself, erase everything you thought you knew before as to not hinder your new Path of learning. But then again, the same can also be said for the Light Side which oftentimes is trying to erase your current mindset and help you ascend above anything that is negative.


My experience if the Darkside is idiosyncratic to me and also part of a continuum of the learning process (a test).

But for me the Darkside enjoys sucking the marrow from your existence, it would not gain sustenance within a blank slate, it slowly consumes you. When I was immersed in the Darkside I likened it to being stuck - and sinking - in quick sand whilst holding a locked heavy chest. Reason would dictate that I throw the chest to extricate myself from the quicksand. But the "promise" of what was contained in the chest made it extremely difficult for me to discard it. I was utterly fixated on that promise, and soon I started to lose myself (as I understand it) believing that everything I was, everything I had acheived whilst immersed in the Darkside was not through my own hard work, but was the result of the chest. I felt I was nothing without it, and so I held it all the more tighter.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Miles » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:44 pm

Khaos wrote:I also would be interested in a definition of Darkness sans moral and ethical connotations.


I am not sure this is possible without a complete break. I have been working a bit on this recently and when I look at how it is used. In my experiments, it keeps reverting. I would look for other words for other ideas.

Is the desired result in a definition of darkness? It appears as though you are seeking some autonomous source of inspiration, influence or perhaps an energy source that might be able to inspire and direct? Hard for me to tell from what you are saying. I'm just thinking that if there were to answer that a definition of darkness would provide, it might be helpful to identify the question the answer applies to. Why ask for a definition of darkness? I have my answer, but in mine, the presence of moral and ethical connotations do not detract, nor does a concept of duality, positive/negative, etc. If it does for you then I am curious as to what you are looking for.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Khaos » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:03 pm

Why ask for a definition of darkness?


Im merely offering a new line into the original thread.

Most often, even when defining Darkness, people cannot do so without the juxtaposition of Light.

Even this thread exemplifies this.

As you have stated that you dont see Darkness as external, and yet, even a dichotomy represents some other, outside of Darkness, even if within the individual.

Really, im curious to see if people can define it on its own, without using Light, or a moral ground from which to springboard.

As you have asked what the next step is, I would find it being Darkness without the need of a dichotomy to justify itself, even if only to those trying to define it.

In a real sense, you are still, if using duality, defining Darkness by what it is not.

You once made an exercise about defining Sith without using Dark, or Darkness in it.

I am asking something similar.

A definition of Darkness without the dichotomy of Light, or a duality of moral and ethical value.

As this is where most get stuck in development.

Its more a case of " I am Dark because this is Light." Or " I am Sith, because this is Jedi."

Makes conversations boring after a while.

I mean, do you have any idea how many times I have seen this question, and even the answers over the years?

Its like Groundhog Day.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Khaos » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:07 pm

It appears as though you are seeking some autonomous source of inspiration, influence or perhaps an energy source that might be able to inspire and direct?


No, certainly not. I would be the last person to look for such a thing. Im not even capable of forming a concept.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Miles » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:22 pm

Ah, I see ... okay. Almost like reversing the process, perhaps giving a definition to where a subsequent definition of "Light" would be "the antithesis of this definition"? Well ... that still uses duality but I think you know what I mean.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Mortose » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:18 am

I will take this challenge...

Darkness is an impersonal force, an all consuming formlessness. It is conflict and insatiable hunger. It is an ever spanning void impossible to fill and defined by infinite appetite. Hatred, lust, obsession, paranoia... greed; such vibrant and vicious emotions spiraling around the central eye do not define but rather tint its' expression through the realities of the Manifest.


Darkness is an impersonal force

Darkness is flow, it is movement within the absolute stillness of the central eye. It is the stirrings inside the womb of infinitely compressed chaos that radiates outward to touch all realities.


Darkness is conflict: internal and external

The current of darkness is chaos. Chaos that flows through and against manifest reality. Chaos tinted by the emotion that flavors its' expression on what lives. Chaos brought on by infinite hunger; a force of endless consumption. Chaos that if focused forces the self to not only gaze into the mirror but to shatter it's image through years of effort... Through years of facing every bit of social conditioning... Through years of breaking down every wall moral or otherwise. Chaos that runs through the depths of every creature who is daring enough to become a Lord of their own destiny... A force that reaches out and transforms the internal landscape of self into a raging fire that will consume all in its path... All that might dare hinder them... Every delusion.

---

I am dark because this force moves through me and fuels my thoughts and actions... My consciousness... My desires... My spirit and my soul... I... Flavor this impersonal energy... I... Make it personal.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Khaos » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:43 pm

Darkness is a philosophers stone.

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Each Sith, is an alchemist, and our materials and instruments are represented most commonly by our code. However there are others.

Passion(s)
Strength
Power
Victory
Reason
Emotions

More than likely there are other ingredients specific to each individual, that get mixed in.

A Sith spends there time finding the right ingredients, in the right measurements,in the proper combination, combined with the proper amount of heat to refine, distill, within the forge of the self...nothing more than that which is the culmination of our highest potential.

The search for the philosophers stone is an occult process.

The definition of occult being hidden, secret, or in other words Dark

Or put much more succinctly...

Magick is the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will- Aleister Crowley

Replacing magick with Darkness, and it rings especially true.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Miles » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:11 pm

I like. Remove the old and bring in the missing with a swift stroke of the pen.

This could redirect a lot of the entry and intermediate work. I can see a break in the rut.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Xenebrus » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:39 pm

"Life shall ever rise above the Light, Xenebrus, but Life shall never rise above the Darkness." - Lord Rive, Sith Master

Darkness is neither a force nor a force-less. It is neither a formlessness nor a void. Darkness is neither a dark energy nor a dark matter, as these are natural proper.

Darkness is supernatural, as no figurative or literal account of its creation exists.

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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Mortose » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:34 pm

Xenebrus wrote:"Life shall ever rise above the Light, Xenebrus, but Life shall never rise above the Darkness." - Lord Rive, Sith Master

Darkness is neither a force nor a force-less. It is neither a formlessness nor a void. Darkness is neither a dark energy nor a dark matter, as these are natural proper.

Darkness is supernatural, as no figurative or literal account of its creation exists.

X


Yet so many of "us" seek to find words, description... to define the indefinable.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Khaos » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:09 pm

Everything can be defined.

Its just that people fear definition.

People would rather be fooled than have things explained.





Even in the second time around, having it explained as its happening, people are still mystified.

Also, I put no stock in the "supernatural."

I may not know it, or be able to explain it yet, and yet, at one time, people could not explain or define alot and accepted it as such, until someone with the proper combination of will, effort, and passion made it possible, and in defining things, have created upon those definitions many things people take for granted today.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Xenebrus » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:38 am

Mortose wrote:Yet so many of "us" seek to find words, description... to define the indefinable.

Darkness exists above and beyond nature, i.e., supernatural...

Darkness is indefinable to most definition seekers because they see darkness as either an object or an activity, which darkness is neither. Darkness is indefinable to some definition seekers because they see darkness as possessing a constitution of qualities, i.e., essence, which darkness does not.

Darkness is definable to any definition seeker who severs his or her dependencies on the true antithesis of darkness, nature---inverting or rejecting light sets this into motion.

Give yourself to the dark Side.


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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Bearer Ov Darkness » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:40 pm

Really, im curious to see if people can define it on its own, without using Light, or a moral ground from which to springboard.


Here's what I think.

Darkness is the unifying principle of the mind and its nature in its actuality at the same time. It encompasses every layer of the psyche including collective unconscious and superconscious.

Personally, I experience it as the very core of my being.

The developmental milestone of reaching the point of constant attunement to Darkness is what Crowley used to understand under the term of recognition of one's True Will.

Lately, I began to wonder why people, even the dark-side-oriented, attribute to it so many demonic qualities. I hypothesize that the reason behind it is the fear of disintegration, as one can become one with Darkness, which I assume to be the ultimate goal of one's transmutation, only through the dissolution of ego. To work with Darkness is to follow a path of totality. I'd liken it to a highly efficient radical psychoanalytical therapy – as it lies beyond possibility (and desirability) to fully control the pace of gaining insight and integration, it's only logical to expect certain points of vulnerability and instability in the process.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Darth Draconis » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:00 pm

I think I agree with that, more or less. I might try to reduce it...

Darkness is truth. It's reality. It's what is. Or, as you said...
Darkness is the unifying principle of the mind and its nature in its actuality at the same time. It encompasses every layer of the psyche including collective unconscious and superconscious.

Personally, I experience it as the very core of my being.

Visceral. Felt. Words always, inevitably, fall a little short.

A lot of the time they don't just fall short, they obscure.

Lately, I began to wonder why people, even the dark-side-oriented, attribute to it so many demonic qualities.

I would postulate that it's because reality can be disturbing. Especially to those that spend a lot of their time pretending it's... more 'angelic' than it really is. Or to those that have spent a lot of time previously, and have only just begun to move away from that.

I used to do it. To some extent I guess I still do but only in so far as the fact that people just can't grasp what you describe. Or won't. They can't move beyond darkness as something that depends on light for definition. Can't entertain that it can encompass everything. Everything that matters. If you ask me... light is just something that occurs in the dark. It (ideals, delusions, morals) distorts darkness, shines in it, and for as long as it lasts in any one place, the dark is always there with it. Surrounding it, even within it, warped to brightness. Just waiting to swallow everything the light thinks it can keep shining on. Always there to reassert the fact that it's been there all along, the moment light falters.

Kind of in the same vein as "peace is a lie, there is only passion". You can believe in peace, you can work for it, you can pretend you've got it. But passion is always there to reassert itself, to stir **** up and incite conflict. Peace exists in as much as any other lie. Same thing with light.

I hypothesize that the reason behind it is the fear of disintegration, as one can become one with Darkness, which I assume to be the ultimate goal of one's transmutation, only through the dissolution of ego.

In my experience... the ego isn't dissolved. Rather, it's glorified. That doesn't take fear of its disintegration off the table as a motive, but if that's the case it's an unjustified fear imo.
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Re: How do you define light and darkness

Postby Bearer Ov Darkness » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:25 am

They can't move beyond darkness as something that depends on light for definition. Can't entertain that it can encompass everything. Everything that matters.


Perhaps the Western civilization is to blame, as it's bound by the dualistic thinking and ignorance of intuition.

If you ask me... light is just something that occurs in the dark.


Well said! My friend who works in advertising made me a surprise printed T-shirt saying "Pure Evil” recently, this makes me crave for another one with this sentence of yours :).

In my experience... the ego isn't dissolved.


I wasn't referring to permanent dissolution. What I had in mind is something achievable through ecstatic experiences which compel you to ”feel nothing more than existence”*, a state where everything irrelevant is forgotten. 21st century control freaks** would find it extremely hard to give themselves to anyone or anything. It takes trust and confidence to throw oneself into the all-consuming fire and find the strange comfort amidst its licking flames.

Rather, it's glorified.


But of course! We don't want any Right Hand accretions here ;).
However, I prefer the term "I” in this context to highlight the emergent holistic quality. So much needs to be burnt down and torn apart, that in the outcome of such procedures the old shaky, flaky, crybaby ego is no more. Just like Nietzsche said, "Man is something that shall be overcome”.



* Yesterday I listened to a track by Death in June, Death Is The Martyr of Beauty, and this line was etched on my memory
** 21st Century Schizoid Man, true masterpiece by King Crimson comes to mind ;)
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